Independents to decide government warm on NBN

I'm sure people of sane mind would not like to effect a $43bn debt on our society!
Surely there are far more pressing matters as health, education etc, rather than having a faster connection to porn sites

i hope the independents will use their power to change pension rules to give me and thousands of aussies pensions based on a single income and nor joint income. i will die befor i can access pensions because my wife in 10 years younger and will continue to work
milroy martyn
90 david collinc drive e/hills

@4 you both may be right! Crawley was really trying to make the point about debt! and I hope you are right about NBN paying for itself. I would be more than interested if you could advise what ROI or business model you have gained your figures that suggest the repayment senario.
With thanks

If politicians in years gone by had been afraid to spend money we'd still be sending telegraphs, or using carrier pidgeon to communicate.
Large infrastructure projects cost money, this cannot be avoided.
At some point the network has to be significantly modernised, or we'll risk slipping even further behind the rest of the world.
The ALP has made a good start. It would be a terrible waste if Liberal gets into power and scraps the whole thing.

It is always the Labor Party that does the hard yards on reform and direction of this country . The coalition get the benefit and get to put the cherry on top. Where will Abbott's budget be if he backflips over the NBN to secure the independents support.

@12 Ben, don't be too harsh on him, it's the price an old bloke pays for cutting a young one from the herd!

Hmm just had a demo of the E-Health rural home unit, with all its attachments, it can take blood pressure, blood sugars, ECG and oxygen blood ratios or SATS and a brochure with quite a number of further upgrades, it is to be honest quite impressive, why didnt they show this off better.

Hmmm this roadshow needs to go public, and not just rural medical and their IT support, was a real eye opener.

@17. Speaking of BS…! Now I’ve heard it all… That really is classic hypocrisy from Mr. 17.5% Tassie take up...!

It wasn’t, as you swore (pun intended) 17.5%, was it? That was BS? But yet you still wouldn’t admit it. In fact, you went on the bluff and bluster, attack, to desperately but unsuccessfully, hide your error. Dear oh dear…

Difference between DN and you is; DN will listen to others views, including yours - seemingly sourced directly, word for word from the Liberal party charter and nowhere else. He will also stand corrected, when wrong. Where as you, flatly refuse to hear others ideas and even when proven unequivocally incorrect (think 17.5% ) you simply aren’t big enough to accept it, let alone actually admit it!

Please predictably enter more desperate bluff and bluster to deny you were ever wrong re: 17.5% A G A I N… here, now! We're waiting!

This is your biggest downfall and why you have to childishly hide for days and weeks, so as to wait for everything to blow over, before returning to start the same disproved BS over and over again…!

Newman....A Brochure.... a Real Eye Opener! No wonder they send to places out of the way, Tassie, The Nullabor, while you are there, do me a favour, go and have a drink with Wilson and tell him how you feel..Please!
Newman you are obviously very tired!
You take care coming back to civilization, we will give you a Vodka and cranberry when you get back!

Anyone forget that the NBN is a paying service? I.e. it generates revenue?

Let me preface my comments by stating I'm not concerned whether we do or don't get an NBN. I just wish the the politicians and commentators here would stop using the statement that we can't afford it. How much has the WAR we had to have cost us thus far and continues to cost us in more ways than financial! I don't hear anyone saying we can't afford that.

@9

well said.

the only reason liberal can claim better management of the budget, is because they refuse to spend and invest in Australias future.

That's why we have such a terrible health and education system, and that why I can't get more than 4Mpbs!!

It's 2010 for crying out loud.

The majority of Australians voted for the Labor party, with a big swing towards Greens.

That should be the focus of these independents. How to work with labor and the greens to get a better outcome for the country.

I'm very concerned if the coalition manages to form governement there will be significant instability in the years to come. That have proved they are an obstacle to moving our country forward into the 21st century.

Australians have had enough of Abbott and his 'attack dog' style of politics.

@8

Umm, porn industry is a 13 billion dollar industry for Australia.

Don't be so quick to dismiss 'faster porn downloads ' as an argument (one of ) for faster broadband.

;-)

@29

- The GFC ( a desire to avoid recession and putting 100,000's out of work)

- A desire to actually invest (meaning you have to spend) in health and education.

And btw, debt a 6% of GDP is more than manageable (as long as we are back in surplus in 3 yrs as projected).

i.e if you have a $100,000 income, that's like having a $6000 loan.

@31

I don't really watch commercial TV or listen to commecial radio, or read commercial newspapers. Not much anyway.

I did watch ALL of the National Press Club addresses on ABC, including all the debates. This was the kind of coverage all Australians should have been watching.

From that, I was able to analyse in sufficient detail, the differences between the parties, the policies, the 2 leaders, and the other people that would be surrounding those 2 leaders.

That ABC Q&A is rubbish, just a big talk fest. The ABC commentators kept trying to tell me there was no difference in the 2 parties policies, and that neither party had any vision. What rubbish.

The National Press Club addresses were very good. I only wish the rest of the country got to see these (like on commerical stations etc).

Instead all they got was a lot of rubbish from the networks.

If you want to be well informed (so you can vote accordingly), you have to really work at it.

That's the lesson Australians should take from this election.

@33

SBS's Insight program is a much, much better format than Q&A.

Much broader discussion takes place, and Jenny controls the discussion really well, unlike Q&A's Tony.

And the politicians have to sit in the same audience as the public.

I really like that format.

And you don't get silly tweets popping up all the time!

Now some of you are going to jump at what I just wrote, and say"but but but then debt is bad, surplus is good", and your right to a point, but lets say 43 billion is spent on any infrastructure project, we are talking 6% debt to the GDP, while the US is looking at 135% debt to GDP within 7 years...Different game, different rules.
Debt is fine in the short term, a long term surplus is only good, if your nation is running on good balanced infrastructure and most of it needs are met, otherwise what is the point of government at all, the government isnt a business or a bank its a voted in selection of people to maintain and run the country, making vast profits is not the point of a government, having a balanced government books is, and balanced means everything that NEEDS to be done IS.

Ok Raymond I am going to throw your entire post 37 back at you, you say learn something, ok show me what you have learnt...For the sake of balance now list what you believe were the Liberals failings in last government and in this election campaign...
Many of us here have attacked both sides for their lack of policy and ethics, so put your money where your mouth is and enlighten on both sides of the story, not just one.

@29 Daniel PS: also our dollar and our trade with china off set any downturns...not to mention the strength of our banks, the GFC was a european, US issue mainly.

@35 Newman, without knowing it, you are onto something here a second round will crucify australia for ten years or more, reason being, as the world trade and commodity prices come off, and the fact there is no longer a fighting fund left, only debt!
And god forbid, a big new mining tax! of 50% which is Greens policy, and they will run the labor party if they get across the line!
Plus we will have to find $55 billion for NBN...a bloody mess brother.And before you scream at my figures I have included the $19.2 billion in interest,remember this is off the balance sheet still!
And for your info, the chicken does come first, the egg is created in the chicken overy by an enzime, so you need a chicken for that to happen!

@37

I think we can forgive the Labor party for a little waste.

There was a 'national economy' at stake after all.

The stakes were too high, and nobody really new what could happen. If there had been a breakdown in confidence (which is what would have happnened had the Labor party not spent) then we would be in a very different situation economically, and would it take many more years to get back to any kind of surplus.

You can argue either way I suppose, but I still have my job, my company still has goods prospects for the future. Our economy is in good shape. Unemployment is very low.

I mean, what the hell is Abbott going on about? A little waste, a little debt? Easy tradeoffs I say (as long as it's 'managable' - which it is).

Where I live many dairy farms have switched to lower value beef and retired horses, and fireweed overruns the pastures, the oyster leases are half empty due to siltation from eroding cleared river banks, the citrus orchards have been bulldozed, the really good timber is nearly all used for whatever and the furniture comes from China, and the families that have been here for generations are reporting to Centrelink.
Yet we should be earning more money from exports of broad scale and premium and cottage industry food to increasingly wealthy Asian markets.
This would take investment in various infrastructure and service enablers to achieve an economic ROI based on world best class sustainable agriculture, with less dependency on energy costs.
So yes, the country needs much more forward looking economic research, planning and delivery. The NBN is only part of this.

@45 Daniel, this will be the last one to you on this subject, if I take your scenario just for this exercise!
When you go to your bank and ask for the $6k the bank manager then says to you, son, because we are in difficult times, I am going to go through your cost of living exes, ok housing rate are going to go up 1.25% over the period of the loan, because of the mining tax, everything else is going up 8%. now lets look at your family health plan, ah, health has just gone up 11% your kids education up 8%.
Now lets look at where you are employed, hmmmmm interesting because of the downturn your job is at risk???? Daniel my boy, please let me have alook at this application and I will get back to you.
Daniel... I hope you did not need the 6 grand to rewire the house to get ubeaut NBN..............you did, damn, and Optus, iiNet and those bastards at Telstra have put up the prices for broadband............Daniel, some days you are the bug! somedays you are the windscreen.........life can be a pain! and you thought you were well off with your miserable 100 grand, be careful who you vote for Son!

There is another factor brewing, there is a good 60 to 70% chance there will be another GFC event within the next 2 years, one that most countries effected by the first have nothing left to use to counter it, even a minor double dip will see 40% of the G20 default.

The time of one eyed politics from all sides is going to have to come to if anything temp halt, there is a real risk of another global GFC that will worse in impact due to lack of borrowing status from most effected countries.

There is a need for a plan in case this does occur, and it cant be the surplus plan, that is just plain stupid, but it cant be like the labor parties last action, now i,m not saying it was terrible, i,m saying given the time frame and response time it wasnt to bad, but this time there is no excuse for a more solid focused plan.

David Koch switching to reasoned panic mode this morning got me spoked, he normaly is so foppishly bull by nature, and right of centre in his thoughts, but what he is now preaching pricked my ears up this morning, dont like money advisors acting out of charactor.
http://au.pfinance.yahoo.com/b/david-koch/1445/economic-cloud-lingers-over-new-term

Newman, I am in your corner to a large extent on this one, I however disagree with anything that spews out of David Koch, after all it was himm with Rudd that prepared to fake an ANZAC day scene with Rudd in order for ratings, he lost me then!
However from a similar camp Ross Greenwood I do respect, and I shall take note of his comments over the next few days, if you listen on the web you can get him from 6.00pmEST on Radio 2gb or MTR 1377, he is also a regular on Chnl 9.

The major difference this time we have no fighting fund!

And if it works out labor greens we then have a 50% mining tax, should that be the case, capital funding will dry up completely, you will not need a NBN draining further then.

Woops @48 & 50, apologies...

@53. Funny DN, how you and I never claimed to be Nostradamus', but unlike those who did, our previous comments are being proved correct by both events and experts and as such, disproving those other (woops other"s")

It was common knowledge that if Abbott won the election the NBN would be canned and "you know who" would have been back here like a flash giving us an undeserved serve.

But now, even if Abbott does form government, he "may" have to keep/redesign the NBN to a degree, to appease the independents and "you know who" may as usual, be W R O N G A G A I N... LOL!!!

Just being playfully facetious!

Raymond, Thanks for your insightful input to this discussion. You seem to have your finger on the pulse and have access to a wealth of information when it comes to facts and figures.

Could you please enlighten us as to what we have spent thus far on our involvement in IRAQ and Afgahnistan.

Could you attempt to inform us whithout commentry on the merrits of our involvement as that is for another time.

See Daniel, as I said @ #49 one only has to bait the hook, as I clearly did @ #54 and inevitably #55 is unable to resist..!

Note too (and also as mentioned) he doesn't reply to me! The reply to the issues in my comment, were directed to someone else, LOL!

Plus again, the NBN (which people are already using) will never be built. OMG, better not tell them the comms they are using "doesn't exist"!

But as we all knew, it would never be "completed" if Abbott was elected. Bit different to will never be built... ooh the fine print (as touted) phew, better add that so one at least has half a leg to stand on.

@55. Yahoo news 24/8 - " Opposition Leader Tony Abbott wants a "kinder, gentler" federal parliament"...

So if he scrapes in, instead of get a haircut and get a job Centrelink imbecile, Abbott will have you minions saying things like "peace man", "kumbaya" and "you'll be out planting trees and smoking weed".

Good for you...!

Now an answer for Grumpy please. Actual figures not your BS 17.5% lies, actual figures. And please no more, "because I said"!.

@55 well if I was going to use your benchmark in working out if I was right or wrong, with the NBN online officialy then by your method of rational it is in fact built and running.
And Abbott is not scrapping he will be absorbing, minor nit picks but, like whatever (laugh).

At this moment I am more concerned that if Abbott gets in he is forced to improve his regional comms plans and relooks at his stance with Telstra, even Telstra are happy with the notion of seperation, they want out from the copper abaltross around their neck, and with a dam good reason.

Raymond I will put a question to you, does Abbotts plan cover the cost of ripping out all copper lines over 60 years old ?

Why dont you do a quick costing of replacing said copper, it will make you shoot coffee out of your nose.

Also a prediction, if Tony gets in, someone is going to launch an enquiry into the state of the copper infrastructure, there appears to be a game afoot already.

@ 60, Newman, I have given your questions some further thought, and you seem to be coming from the premise Abbott will be forced into something!

Not sure Abbott get forced into much! however, I think for the sake of stability, you may well see a very, very pragmatic Abbott.

And further thinking about copper, I doubt very much if it will become any major, major issue, there just might far bigger fish to catch and fry!

You will find that the three Independents, will produce a nine point charter, the ninth point being truth in advertising!
and I suspect, copper is not going to be there! so while it might be of interest! it is not that important in the big picture given all the issues.

AHH i see Raymond you miss understood the question, my fault I wasnt clear enough looking back...
Yes there might be a price on copper removal, but yeah mostly it will be left to rot.
What I meant was the plan entails still using the copper network to a certain degree, and in parts its so patched with gels and the like, there is large swaths that should be condemmed, I can think of number myself that I have seen in Perth and Rockingham that are way past fit for purpose.

So question was meant to be, I not seeing costings for replacing the copper, and maybe removing the old where space dictates a swap out, now these areas are on ADSL 2+ enabled exchanges but still can get barely ADSL, and Ive heard the same story in other cities, is wireless going to be the only option to these people, if so the plan is going to fall flat on its arse pretty quickly.

The decommissioning of the copper network is going to become an issue, one thats going to be used shortly, I still dont think the coalition has fully factored in a number of issues, and the plan still smells off.

Telstra is going to be a big issue, if they dont get seperation they know they are in deep manure long term because they can not pull through and replace all that copper, and it will end up as a liabilty test case at some point, unless they try and pull off that BS from the SOL era and try and tell everyone to go 100% wireless.

I know as we all do from the news, and I a little more from veiwing the VOIP growth rate on top of mobile take up, that fixed line numbers, plus maintence issues of the decaying copper will be Telstra swan song, over a period of 5 to 10 years, the copper failure due to decay have already crossed the maintence/no maintence line of ideal money allocation, a policy that SOL practised to the extreme.

Plus terrible engineering patch ups using gels that are slow oxidizing agents was a cheap bodge job solution, it would be like having a roll of gaffe tape in your tool kit, because we all know it fixes everything mentality, but they do use the gels and now that is another factor in the copper failure.

There is serious questions about what has been offered, purely because the real engineering of whats being asked, not the shiny finished product, but all the gear that needs to be tweaked to support and shoe horn it in, is basicly screwed, and will need to be replicated, the cost is NOT 6.3 billion, and it does not provide a true upgrade fix, hell it isnt even a fix .

@66 Newman, your last paragraph says it all! and I agree it is much more than 6.3, however whatever it is going to be will come from good will negotiating betwwen the Independents and the leaders! the third option is back to the polls, and if that happens labor get blastered into Nowheresville!
If it goes Abbott, I think what will happens to national comms and broadband will be a very good outcome, and I have somewhere between $10--14billion but spent somwhere along the lines of the BER but much more targeted, and I suspect you will see more activity from the commercial satellite people.

It's Game on.......but no rules yet for what is being played!

@67 Newman, This is how NBN all started! when smart arse Sol put in a non compliant bid, thinking he would get to the negotiating table, instead and rightly so was told to Hasta la Vista.
The smart thing they did then was to say they would build their own using 3G 100mb in melbourne only! now at this stage the 4.7 NBN was going to be 42mb, so taking melbourne out of the national equasion had Conroy stuffed.........he countered by saying we will build one too! and here we are, Solled, oils just aint oils anymore!
Now I think what Barnett is proposing is fantastic for that region, and I think that is what will come out of the three Independent Amiego's.

Imagine setting up the best regional areas in australia fully serviced by genuine fast broadband and every service you could think of, then build fast train service to that region, now that is what I call infrastructure to make this place tick.

I have always thought that fast broadband could work, but not as the government has set it up NBN Co, I just will not wear it as THE way to go.

There still is going to be the need for a big step up from the Libs and a small step down for labour, if they said fibre to node now, they could make a good case on coms, and if the Liberals said fibre to node, they got a damn sight more support than they can possible guess.
I believe the price for the Libs will not be that harsh as I stongly suspect their 6.3 billion price tag is BS, because like most politics in an election the price has been spun about so much, even it doesnt know what the heck it is.

Wasnt FTTN around 20 billion, call it 12 with 8 private investment, still leaves the issue of rural, their big pull was the 97% coverage last 3% sat, a fair chunk loved that idea, and heck I do to for the poor buggers.
But the present plan just doesnt fly, even if they reverse the build order, its just well I cant think of a non offensive word for it, lacklustre, underwhelming and patched up bodge job doesnt cut it, lets face it , its crap.

BAH the situation sucks for sure, and sadly this is what happens when you leave a problem to long to fester, everyone gets backed into a corner, and it becomes personnel, Liberals cant sort Telstra without losing massive face, Labour cant scale the NBN.co project back a bit for same reason, those 4 are right in one respect, we have lost sight of politics for the people, and not politcs for the sake of the party.

@70 there is a case for the NBN, its downside is cost, thats it, the other issues are just nick picking at this stage, because I dont believe half the end game predictions on that at all.
There is less of case for the LIB NBN because its only saving grace is cost, and I aint sold on that story yet either, the service itself, crap.
We need a proper costing done on both projects, once and for all, and now, because a nations comms is not really something you frack around with as much as has occured over the last 15 years, its time for monies where you mouths are, because a proper costing on both parties is going to make both of them a wee bit uncomfortable I'm guessing.

I don't understand why so many people are complaining about the cost, suggesting we invest in hospitals...

Health budget: $560bn/10yr
Education budget: $320bn/10yr
Welfare budget: $1,100bn/10 year (trillion...)
Defense: $200bn/10year (lol)
Even 'general government services' is $920bn/10yr - whatever that is.

$26bn that has the possiblity to generate income (10 million active services churned over...) is gonna send us bankrupt, noes :)

Noted with interest that the Coalition has refused to comply with the rquest for all parties to resubmit all costings to treasury, how anyone in the coalition thinks this is a sound idea beggers belief, whats the issue now.
Also noted Quigley is to with a bunch of ministers to sit down and explain all of the NBN.co costings.

So in this light who looks open and who looks a tad shifty, this is real basic politics here, look good to the 4 indie;s for awhile get into government then blow them off if you want, but not at stage 1....

Said it before, something smells off.

@76 & 77 Newman, the french truce is getting wobbly mon petite choux!

I have asked of you before to understand the polictical system before you make comment.

As we are in caretaker mode, by law Gillard cannot give labor costings, she will have to make an amendment to the laws of caretaker mode!
As for Abbott, as he has not submitted his costints to the public service because of that low faul grub Swan leaking before the election, therefore as it would work, if their policies were to be submitted to the public service now, the public service would not have the briefings of explanation, and design of the policy intent. It is a bit like reading a iiNet or NBN "health Borochure" and making of it whatever you want! and we would not want people saying things about brochures now would we!

So I am in Abbotts camp here, furthermore, I want my potential leader to stand up for what he feels is the best for all not the ego of some regional hick.Policy is the engine room of the nation, bad policy is a boat without paddle up that well known creek!
I am really begining to shift my opinion to lets go again to the polls, I have seen some numbers from the three Independents area's, and big numbers for a poll in each case almost 4000 people in each region the other polls take 1400 nationally so these are big numbers and the tide against their independents supporting labor is so negative, a new poll will scare the crap out of a lot of people, and they won't be liberal!

whats with the petite choux, baby cabbages or brussels maybe, huh ?

I agree with you Raymond in 78, if both parties in all fairness had both submitted their costing to treasury, the public has had a gut full of BS in regards to costings and this is a shrewd call.

Shrewd well whoever is proven to be the biggest BS artist in costings, gives the gang of 4 a honest reason to go with or againest what some in their own areas have said, I mean who can argue with bent costing figures.

Its an insurance policy for them, and seeing as this political situation is unlikely to occur again in our lifetimes if the system remains the same, I,m all for unusual remedies to break the dead lock, and the last BIG POINT, these rules are guidelines that are unwritten, so Raymond please dont huff and puff from that direction its not set in writing.

I say if you got nothing to hide, then dont be frightened of a little spot light, and that applies to both leaders, I am quite biapartisan when it comes to open government, and I have stated before, you couldnt pay me to form a government in this situation, its a posion pill, so consider that before you wish your alligence to win.

Also see they have agreed for them to see the NBN.co leader and for him to show them all the costings of the project, oh that made me chuckle alot.

Wish they hadnt all used my interesting times line though yesterday....

Newman PS: have been meaning to ask...tell your mate! I don't give a flying F... what his condesending thoughts or opinions are!

I also have no idea who RS is or where he is from, though I note he appears on alot of tech sites along with comrade and canberra watcher, so I think he is on a crusade againest zealots myself, which is ironic to a certain degree because he ends up being a zealot about zealots, but thats his bag.....So I could ask here on forums to leave you alone, but thats not my place, he is the flip side of your coin, the coin you created, if it wasnt for you he wouldnt exist here.

Which apon thinking about it is kind of amusing, QED.

Raymond Ive been married 12 years, I KNOW i,m not always right, as I am so often reminded of that fact....

@82...LOL.

16 hours later and… "mon petite choux" you say and then say "been meaning to ask...tell" (ask/tell, lol...)? Maybe one so uncouth and illiterate should simply stick to what they know and do best… (speaking of bull) confessed cattle rustling and obvious self manipulation!

As such, you haven’t even got the balls to direct your stupid flying ---- comment to me, instead, corresponding via someone else, as a spineless child, would!

As for another election equalling a Liberal landslide, possibly? But that’s what you said prior to this election along with that magic 17.5% and tell us about Dr Phil again, der…LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously Tolstoy, your predictability and short fused temper, makes you so much fun to toy with. Wave the red rag and the bull starts…LOL

You will recall (and although you won’t admit it, we both know, LOL) early on after receiving your own medicine x 10, you sobbing and asking me “who are you and what have I ever done to you”, LOL!!!

My reply was and still clearly is – “I am someone who simply enjoys toying with fools and you fool, are my new toy”…

Whether that be to disprove your Tolstoy lies, humiliate your uneducated drivel or take the ***s by being sarcastically agreeable, you are simply too dim to comprehend, that you are being played for the fool and living up to all expectations!

So see you for more toying, really soon. You know you must…

Seems you were right DN a "bizarre dream"!

Easy Rover...good to see you couldn't resist...boy!